The Business Side of Skiboarding-Conflict or Unity?

[jjue]

As many of you know , I have been a very strong supporter of Skiboards.com over the years and the Summit Line of skiboards . I have bought many more boards there than here at SBOL . I beliveve that Summit Skiboards are some of the finest skiboards made . I love the fact that Skiboards.com carries short skis like the Hagan 133 and the Icelantic Line that I am also interested in and I have nothing but positive things to say about my customer service with their online retail side . I like that they offer a rental fleet of skiboards that SBOL does not . I will continue to buy products from Skiboards.com and wish their business well , it can only help skiboarding for them to succeed. . BUT I have left their messageboard because of what it has become .

We do not need division in the Skiboard industry with folks slinging mud at each other over their business relationships . We DO need healthy competition by giving us , the consumer , the very best skiboard products to ride . We need to have forums that are full of enthusiasm and love for the sport and for others who may ride boards that you don't or you might not think are the best . Anyone who rides a skiboard is my brother and sister in skiboarding no matter if it is a Summit , Strictly , Lacroix , Revel 8 , Snowjam , or Spruce board or even a snowblade . We need love not hate .

I strongly believe in ethics in business , I will not support businesses who rip off consumers or screw competitors with unfair business practices. If I had one bit of concern that I was supporting with my money and my words businesses engaged in such practices I would absolutely not support them .
G here at SBOL and Jeff at Spruce love skiboarding and care deeply about the sport and its growth . They are also ethical businessmen who believe in doing business fairly by offering to us the skiboarding public , the very best products available . They are to their core interested in spreading the love in skiboarding and not hate .


I love Summit Skiboards and I own the first generation Summit /Lacroix Woodie Skiboard which is one of my favorite skiboards. So it was with great concern that I saw that Lacroix was selling what looked like repackaged Summit boards on SBOL . I was so concerned about this that I emailed the head of Lacroix , Ludovic Lacroix , myself , much to my suprise he was very forthcoming in discussing skiboarding , his relationships with Skiboards.com and his current relationship with SBOL . Lacroix invested much of money , time and effort financing the production of molds and design work in setting up skiboard productions as a supplier for Summit . After that relationship ended , Lacroix redesigned their molds and are producing their own skiboards based on the original Summit designs .They are not Summit boards with Lacroix top sheets but new designs by Lacroix ,with new materials , based on the original Summit designs . Lacroix has been one of the leaders in producing unique snow sliding tools , One such board they produce is the SKWAL which is a narrow snowboard very similar to my Teleboard . Lacroix has been a well respected member of the ski community for many years and has had excellent relationships with its vendors . The overwhelming impression that skiers have of the Lacroix brand is high quaility construction . It is wonderful for the skiboarding community that ,this quaility ski company has decided to embark on the production of quality skiboards .

Ludovic Lacroix and Jeff Singer are independent designers and builders of fine skiboard products . They have no relationship with each other but are merely interested in reaching the largest consumer base possible for their skiboarding products and having the best relationship possible with their vendors . It says much about Greco and about SBOL that both of these guys have decided to enter into exclusive relationships with SBOL for the North American distribution of their products .


I know that Skiboards.com is upset about this , but mud slinging and spreading hate on online messageboards is not the way to deal with changes in the business climate .

Sorry for the long rant !

[Ian.cap]

So true. Healthy competition is a good thing. It shows the sport is growing. When mud starts to fly it is usually because someone feels threatened. No mud over here. Wonder who feels threatened? In the immortal words of Rodney King, Can't we all just get along?

[zapmeister64]

I must admit that I have been part of the hate before. I know it's really not in the spirit of the sport, but when you see a hick sliding around the mountain on skiboards not knowing what he is doing it's easy to feel the hate, but I and we all just need to remember that this sport is growing. This sport is still not understood amongst most the people out there.

So I applaud that Texas "hick" and his enthusiasm he had on that mountain. I applaud this board for letting people speak freely on their opinions on the sport, and I applaud everyone out there thinking about this sport as something new and fun rather than weird and moronic.

Spread the love and not the hate!

[jjue]

Ok , after this post and another that I have posted over at Skiboards.com there been a number of folks, good people , who I respect who feel that I have overreacted or have been unfair to Doc . It seems that I need to bring some other information to the table . I have learned that Remington II who recently has posted regularly over at Skiboards.com is actually in business with Doc and is in charge of purchasing stock for Doc's inventory . I have learned this from private email communication of Remington II with myself and also with communication with Lacroix who dealt with Remington II in producing Summit Skiboards. I think it is abhorrent for folks who have a business relationship with an online retalier to use a community messageboard to slam competitor's products without divulging their full financial relationship with the web site . Remington II has not divulged his relationship with skiboards.com and has used the messageboard to directly attack competitors products under the guise of a regular community member. He has in this way duped some very good people who I respect . The messageboard over there at Skiboards.com was a wonderful place before Remington II came on board . I also have in the past greatly respected Doc as an online retailer and supporter of skiboarding . I am very concerned that that Remington's influence concerning how to do business is destroying a good man's business and hurting skiboarding as a whole . I wanted to keep this private but I think I must do this to save a business I care about and to clear up some concerns on why I have spoken so forcefully on this issue.

[Ian.cap]

I'll admit that I spend a majority of my time here but I have also spent a lot of time at skiboards.com over the years. I had not visited skibaords.com in some time but when this guy came up in our forum a few weeks/months ago discussing his, shall we say, dislike for R8, I clicked the link and not only read the link provided on this forum but also decided to read more posts written by him. Almost everything I read was combative and one sided. If someone wrote against him, they were attacked and ridiculed for the differing opinion. I've been riding now for along time and I have no idea who this guy is but I had figured he was close with skiboards.com from his posts of undying loyalty. Loyalty is fine and can be a good thing but everything he writes is transparent. It’s sad that people are duped by him. I deal directly with ecommerce for my “paying job” and everything he is doing will come back to bite him in the arse. While his deception was working, truth will always come out and most of the time will be exposed by a disgruntled former customer. And here we are.

[GodAlliz]

I've always praised this kind of peaceful thinking, but in truth there will always be kids that hate on others for whatever reason. Some people are just angry, and message boards are an easy, consequence-free way of taking it out on someone else. On the rolling forums, people within the same board, riding the same skates, will hate on each other just because. People with loyalty to separate shops hate on each other and have "forum wars". But if these people met in person, they would probably still skate together.

I think it's really more of an online-only thing than a serious hatred.

[PedroUK]

I have not posted a lot, but over the years I have watch this forum and the skiboards.com forum. I have also bought products and learned much from both SBOL and skiboards.com.

Traditionally this forums has been more for the park rider and skiboards.com slanted towards the backcounty skiboarder. Because my interested lie in the backcountry I took a great interest in skiboards.com. In recent years jjue has been the soul of the skibaords.com forum but even so in the last two seasons it has been slowly going downhill. In fact 3 seasons ago there was probably more traffic on skiboards.com and jjue would even keep it active during the summer months. Since then, for some reason, posts have generally fallen off while the SBOL forum has become more active. Doc himself has posted less and less and now, when he does, there seems to be a change of attitude.

I don't know what happened between Doc, Lacroix and Spruce. Doc had a good thing going with Lacroix - I believe the Custom 110 woodie to be one of the best skiboards ever made - and if the relationship continued they could have made a very good team. I know that there were quality issues over the 2007 Summits but there must be more to it than that. What went wrong? What is the issue, if any, with Spruce? The thing is I don't know enough to make a judgement. However, in my mind it was wrong for Doc to delete those posts without warning. It just looks like he's throwing his toys out of the pram.

[airdonut41]

Kind of a side note, but I think it's kind of relevant.

When I first came to SBOL it was after visiting skiboards.com in search of my first pair of real skiboards. I started reading up on the forums and getting a feel for what was going on around here. On SBOL (at the time), I heard nothing about Summit products, and at skiboards.com I heard nothing of Revel8 products. I was very confused seeing as they both were apparently of equally high quality and neither were discussed on what I thought were open forums. Then I started investigating a little bit and found a post that mentioned skiboards.com as *********.com (I'm pretty sure G edited someones post as a joke) so I assumed it was fun around here to mock summit and skiboards.com. I doubt I'm the only one who got this kind of impression on first glance, and I think that generates a lot of ill informed people smack talking others. Not good. Fortunately I stayed active on this forum and was able to understand everything that was happening eventually.

Dan

[Greco]

hi dan,

i don't recall editing a post like that but i might have as a joke because skiboards.com's forum is setup to automatically do that if someone types skiboardsonline.com or a bunch of other words that equate to SBOL but i don't believe anything i've ever posted gave anyone the green light to mock summit or skiboards.com, quite the opposite, i've posted in the past that the summit boards are good and have all the ingredients of high quality skiboards.

g

[airdonut41]

Originally posted by Greco
hi dan,

i don't recall editing a post like that but i might have as a joke because skiboards.com's forum is setup to automatically do that if someone types skiboardsonline.com or a bunch of other words that equate to SBOL but i don't believe anything i've ever posted gave anyone the green light to mock summit or skiboards.com, quite the opposite, i've posted in the past that the summit boards are good and have all the ingredients of high quality skiboards.

g

At the time, I was under the impression that there was a feud between the two sites and that's why I couldn't find information about R8 on skiboards.com and vice versa. Since then the whole issue has become much more clear, and I feel very differently about the situation than I did originally.
The censoring was most definitely a joke, and it's possible that it wasn't you, but I thought I remembered that someone's original post was changed and they were confused. I could be wrong though; it was almost two years ago. I thought it was funny, but I fully understand that you in no way are against Summit and skiboards.com. I think everyone can agree that they have good products, and that making fun is really not going to further the progress of the sport. I've since gained much respect for Summit, although I still would much rather sport an SBOL product than a skiboards.com product simply because everyone on the forums here feels like family and because I've known such great customer service here in the past.

Dan

[jjue]

Originally posted by PedroUK
II don't know what happened between Doc, Lacroix and Spruce. Doc had a good thing going with Lacroix - I believe the Custom 110 woodie to be one of the best skiboards ever made - and if the relationship continued they could have made a very good team. I know that there were quality issues over the 2007 Summits but there must be more to it than that. What went wrong? What is the issue, if any, with Spruce?.

I also don't know the complete story but I learned enough about what went on to satisfy myself that I feel that Doc Roberts, Ludovic Lacroix , Jeff Singer and Greco are all ethical businessmen who have the interest of skiboarding at heart . They are all interested in providing us the best value for our dollar in skiboarding products . I have nothing but positive things to say about all of these guys in my dealing with them as a customer. I think business decisions have been made as decisions must be made in any business and I think it is time to move on .

As for the forums , I applaud Jcx , Wendell , Sb-bob , Bruinskiboard, El Slurpo , Valmorel , Docta and others for keeping the Skiboards.com forum going. I am especially happy that Wendell , who had his post deleted feels free to speak there again . I look forward to important discussions there concerning the Summit boards and the Hagans and the Icelantic Boards and I hope that the moderators will allow comparisons with other boards that are not sold by Skiboards.com .

My own feeling , is that it is very important , now ,that we grow the skiboarding community as a whole ,and that we have a place where we all feel comfortable to gather and discuss freely the pros and cons of different products whether they are sold on the site or not . I applaud the new Skiboardplanet web site forum as an attempt to set up an independent forum . I feel , however, that we are really a small community and it would be great rather than all of us running off to different forums to discuss aspects of skiboarding with a few other folks that there is one MAIN PLACE .. one community hangout , as it where, were all of us riders whether we ride the park or the backcountry , whether we are beginners just starting out , or seasoned pros , whether we ride Summit , Revel 8 , Allz , Lacroix , Snowjam or other skiboards or short skis or snowblades to discuss freely all aspects of skiboarding without feeling the need to censor our comments or feel unwanted. SBOL has the most traffic of any skiboard website forum by a long shot at present and I have been very impressed that although sponsored by an online retailer , it has become just such a place . Summit riders and Revel 8 riders have recently posted positive comments about their rides , and shown pictures of their boards . We have had riders tell us that the Hagan 133 outranks the Spruce 120 as an all mountain board. We have had open discussions of the mess in Romania and constructive discussions on what to do about skiboarding competition for the future . We have a regular member who is shredding the parks on a Rossi 120 short ski and is NOT ridiculed at all but accepted as one of us . There has been some feeling in the past that SBOL was just the hang out place for the park guys and gals and young folk . That is certainly not the case at the present , we have had a number of reviews of new skiboards by guys almost as old as me ;)!! And that is pretty damn old !
We have had discussions of Nastar racing on skiboards and photos of family¡¦s just having a good time on skiboards. We have had excellent technical posts on skiboard design ( thanks Brklyncarver!) , There is a big feeling of acceptance here of different folks , of different rides and different views of things. People have NOT been afraid of speaking out forcefully about things and giving us all their opinion . This is alll made possible by an active moderator , who is present and a part of this forum , who does NOT censor posts and who has SET a very open tone as to the discussion of products that he does not sell . I have , as have others , self censored myself in posting here in the past because it is a commercial site with products to sell . What I have come to understand , though , is that G really , truly is interested in growing the skiboarding community and to allow diversity of discussion on his forum . I really feel , this is NOT a gameface but REAL on his part and for that I am grateful . Yes ,of course , G is running a business and his forum helps his business succeed but what I have appreciated the most ,about his approach to his forum is his understanding that free and honest discussion whether good or bad about his competitors products as well as his own ,rather than hurting him can actually help his business.

This has become THE PLACE for skiboarders to hang and discuss everything about skiboarding with their friends . It has become a positve force to support all of us and to help each other out . It is the most diverse skiboard community on the web and is full of energy and the free flow of thought and feelings about the sport we all love so much . We are really growing up as a sport this year , with a huge variety of products available , and a growing number of folks enjoying our sport , we need a place that is THE MAIN FACE of skiboarding where newbies and those interested in understanding our sport can go to get a flavor of what is happening and the energy of those who love it . A live , active forum is vitally necessary for our sport , I really think this place is it and I hope others will think so as well and by their contributions make this place even greater as we move forward !

[H2O Junkie]

I don't really pay much attention to the hate aspect. I came here because I did everything by the book on the other board to join and couldn't get whoever the admin is to release me to the board. I sent note after note because I was in the market for new boards and needed info based on my use. I finally had to decide on my own. I only found this board after the fact.

If the other board is going down hill, it is at their own behest since they don't allow noobs.

[mahatma]

I wanted to say that the SBOL Forum is absolutely incredible and in my short skiboarding experience reflects the experienced participants. Just the other day Jeff Singer dropped me a personal E-mail to tell me my powder plates were on the way and offered a few words of insight. Now, do you think Mr. Singer was sitting around scratching himself looking for something to do when he wrote me or that after yet another 15+ hour day he took 5 minutes to write a guy who spent $50 on a product he represents? I lean towards door #2. Greco introduced me to a guy who lives here in Tokyo. Ben and I haven't hooked up yet but we E-mail back and forth. Again, why would Greco go out of his way for a guy who's been skiboarding a few months? Absolutely everyone has been beyond helpful and beyond kind with all sorts of forward moving advice and encouragement for me. I'm sure all of you would rather speak to more advanced topics that proper binding DIN settings and other "noob" topics but you always weigh in and help. I was attracted to skiboarding at the end of last season by a man on a pair of Spruce 120's and even he took 10 minutes at the gondola to turn me on to this thing I knew nothing about. I thought he was on "short skis" but happened to notice how fat they were so asked him what was up. It is my opinion that diversity is the only thing that will keep this whole thing going. Skiboarders, skiers, snowboarders, park rats, groomies and powder freaks are all good things. Skiboarding has me because it's got soul. While many may not want to hear this it feels a lot like snowboarding did back in the day. The difference is I think skiboarding represents the best of both worlds with other plusses. I think I said this to Jeff once and I belive it is true - Skiboarding is now carrying the torch. Look at the past, learn from it and carry the torch well. You are off to one hell of a start and I am proud to be part. You guys have that elusive something that makes what you are doing a great thing.

Money and the making of it is not a bad thing. When it consumes, perverts and controls us to the point we can't even recognize ourselves in the mirror it has become our downfall. Hint: If you ever screw someone over and walk away saying "Well, that's business." You are then consumed, perverted and controlled. You have lost. Take a month off, grab a set of skiboards and go find yourself again. Then, come back and never forget the lesson - lest you be destined to repeat it. Remeber, we can get to a point we can't even forgive ourselves.

[Greco]

wow, that is an awesome post and i'm not talking about the part where you mention me :D i agree with you about skiboarding now being like snowboarding in the 80's. my wife had a friend who was on the leading edge of snowboarding back then and he actually had a shirt made that said "it's called snowboarding" "yes it's fun" substitute the word skiboarding and those are our two most frequent questions. And you couldn't be more right on with effects of money and greed. i want skiboarding to grow but not to the point where it becomes all about business and it's no longer fun...right now is a great time and i appreciate that.

thanks for the great post and for joining our community!

oh and the guy living in tokyo i put you in contact with is ben wannamaker, a few people on the forum might have heard of him :D

g

[slow]

Bumping this thread up so those out riding this weekend do not miss the last few posts on this thread (as I almost did) which are as awsome as skiboarding itself.