KTP/MSR Denali- Backcountry Gear review and Trip report

[jjue]

Great day today testing out my KTP in the backcountry and also my new MSR Denali Classic Snowshoe . Why don't you come along ?

Early morning on the trail all loaded up ... MSR Denali Classic Snowshoes on my feet , KTP on the pack , Scarpa Laser AT boots with lightweight thermo molded liner , Black diamond three sectional trekking poles, and Revel8 sticker plastered helmet :)!

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Get to the Backcountry sign warning of explosive charges ... don't think they will be using them today !!! This is our landmark to leave the snowshoe /cross country ski trail and head up the hill toward Becker ridge .
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The MSr Denali snowshoes are a joy ... no need for the flotation tails today .. maybe 4 inches of new snow over a firm base , the Snowshoe has very nice front crampons and a nice pivoting platform that makes walking a pleasure . I really don't notice the KTP much on my back hiking up the hill .

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Some nice views across the main highway .. that is the backcounty cliffs around Sierra at Tahoe ski area
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[jjue]

Ok the plan is to stop on this nice little knoll and transition to our downhill mode
( my Buddy Bill is the photographer and is on his Hagan 130 short skis )

Here I am nice an happy right before my almost fatal mistake !

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Right after this photo is taken .. I take off my snowshoes . take off my pack and take my Ktp's out of the pack and place them on the snow , unfortunately one of the KTP's is on a slight incline and suddenly gets away from me and shoots down the slope I run and slide down the knoll and breathe a sigh of relief when my KTP runs into a tree well and is saved !! otherwise , it would be a disaster and I would have to forgo skiboarding and spend the rest of the day snowshoeing only , most major bummer , plus my precious KTP would be way , way down slope somewhere ;)! Lesson .. make sure you have control of your slippery skiboards on the summit do not let them slip down the slope !!!!

[jjue]

Next on the agenda is dropping "Squeeze Louise" named in our long ski days when this steep chute full of trees seemed impossibly narrow ... now with skiboards and short skis. it is a piece of cake ...
Amazingly the conditions are quite nice in the trees with some soft snow and new powder .. That is me in the distance . I absolutely love the KTP.. this is the first time I have had it in the backcountry usually taking it's big brother , the Sherpa ,. The KTP is an absolute joy to ride ... I have the Snowjam 2 bindings in the rear inserts and I do not worry at all about pitching forward ,the tails sink naturally in the soft snow .. tips up , the boards turn smoothly .. a joy to ride .

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Finally Squeeze Louise spits us out on an open snow filled meadow half way down the slope ... and we celebrate a wonderful descent !

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There is a view of Becker Peak , for which Becker ridge is named

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ok this is it for now .. I am only 1/2 way through this opus .. more pics , and vids to come , got to take my son out for dinner . .he is hungry !!!

[jjue]

Some nice turns on the KTP on smooth soft snow down to Echo Lake

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Time for a break before we climb back up to the high peaks above Echo Lake . Lake is frozen this time of year and is a popular snow shoe route . and destination .
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[jjue]

The MSR Denali is fabulous going up steep snow with the front crampons biting right up the snow , easy to kick steps up the snow , taking a steeper line then Bill on his skis and skins . . you don't really need the heel elevator and the extra cost of the Denali ascent ...

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Nice views down hill toward the lake we were just at ...

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The upper slopes of the ridge toward Ralston peak are steep , maybe some other day
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We stop on this sub peak and stare up at the extreme terrain all around us .


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Ok , this time I manage the transition from climbing to descent mode without incident and without losing my skiboards ! Here is my pack with snowshoes and poles nicely stowed for the descent ...


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Ok ready to take some nice turns down a steep face ... the KTP feels very stable and a wonderful platform to work from despite it's short length ..
A superb backcountry skiboard. The rear inserts make it extra special. As Kirk , himself , has said, with the bindings in the rear inserts in soft snow , the board is beautifully balanced and a pleasure to ride .

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[jjue]

Ok on the lower slopes , it is time to make a few more turns down to the lake once more ... here is Bill making some sweet turns on his Hagans .. I kid him though that he has super long skis , his 130's are way too long compared to my 101's :)!

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We find some snowed in cabins and find the boat deck of one of the cabins to be a wonderful spot to sit in the sun and enjoy our lunch

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While eating lunch we see some snowshoers pass by and checking out their map to decide where to go .. .unfortunately those snowshoers will not have as much fun as I do going down I carry KTPs !

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[jjue]

Ok back home crossing the snow covered lake .

Here are the boats at the Echo Lake boat dock waiting for summer ..

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Here is the Echo Lake chalet . a hub of activity in the summer , quiet now covered with snow .. .

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View of lake tahoe on our way home ..

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Finally we are back at the Echo Lakes Snow Park where we left our car ....
at 130 pm .. I am expected back home at 300pm to help around the house ,
will be maybe 1/2 hr late but not bad .. we packed a lot of sweet climbing and riding into this morning !

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/jjue/IMG_0419.jpg

[Kirk S]

I really hate the fact that my season ended a month ago. man this sucks....

[slow]

Jack, it looks like you and Bill had an excellent morning. Thanks for sharing.

How do you rate the snowshoes versus skinned skiboards for climbing?

[jjue]

Jack, it looks like you and Bill had an excellent morning. Thanks for sharing.

How do you rate the snowshoes versus skinned skiboards for climbing?

I actually was quite suprised at how much I liked the snowshoes ... if you have a lightweight board on your back (KTP with non releasers is pretty light ) it is pretty easy to go up on snowshoes ...

I still thing I prefer skins and touring bindings on skiboards as there is less to carry on your back , and transitions are easier , just rip the skins off without
taking the boards off ..

but I think for those wishing to get into backcountry skiboarding the snow shoe route is an excellent and inexpensive way to get into the sport

[EmptiMind]

Yay inexpensive. I think I'll get these instead of touring bindings then. :P

[SkaFreak]

Some of that surrounding terrain looked absolutely prime.

[jjue]

Some of that surrounding terrain looked absolutely prime.

Yeah , when I was looking up at that stuff , I thought you could find a pretty sick line up there ...

here is another view

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l88/jjue/IMG_0404.jpg

[t21]

those are some nice pics and vids jjue, thanks and i wish had your time to do backcountry riding but probably someday.... those ktp's sure handled some good pow. i hope i could join the next shredfest so i'd could ride with you and the rest of the skiboard family in Tahoe or wherever it will be held again. those snowshoes i might want to buy but i need some friends that would want to go backcountry out here, or i guess i could look around/ask some ski guides if they know some groups that do so:) again great pics and vids jjue and you did not fail to make us jealous AGAIN!:D enjoy the rest of the season, oh wait, you ARE:)

[CAN]

Hi Jack,

That was cool to see. Would you recommend the MSR Denali for the Shredfest II excursion? I have an REI dividend check burning my pocket and they are on sale for $94.
Good idea?I've got nothing else to spend it on so just wondering.

Chad

[jjue]

Hi Jack,

That was cool to see. Would you recommend the MSR Denali for the Shredfest II excursion? I have an REI dividend check burning my pocket and they are on sale for $94.
Good idea?I've got nothing else to spend it on so just wondering.

Chad

Absolutely , snap them up Chad , those little babies are just fantastic , normally they are 139 dollars and at 94 dollars that is a real bargain , yes , they will be prefect for shredfest 2 backcountry trip as will your ktps!!

[CAN]

Hi Jack,
Too late. I snatched up a Dakine Heli pack instead as I can also use it when I mountain bike. I guess I may have to rent them.
Chad

[jjue]

Snowboarders in the backcountry also have a variety of options on the ascent , two of the most popular are snowshoes and the splitboard .. a split snowboard that splits into two skis and is used with skins and a touring binding , and then the whole thing is put together again at the top ..

Here is an interesting thread in which snowshoes vs splitboards are discussed as well as the issue of backcountry etiquette of climbing in "skin tracks" with snowshoes.
http://www.backcountryworld.com/showthread.php?t=1355

For myself , the snowshoe option is very attractive in spring conditions with firmer snowpack .. the MSR Denali with its crampon teeth provide wonderful purchase up steep firmish snow . I think the MSR with the flotation tails will also provide adequate float in deeper snow . The skin track issues discussed above are much more important in deeper unbroken snow . where anyone breaking a trail really helps the speed of ascent but in which those on skis and those on snowshoes often break different kinds of trails and often the two don't match .

[jjue]

One of the real cool features of the KTP is the rear inserts. The KTP with binding set back feels for all the world like a mini version of my Sherpa in backcountry snow . I think that the assymetric design of the Sherpa with the bigger tip then the tail causes a functional set back in deep powder when ridden center mounted. A set back KTP and assymetric Sherpa both cause the tails of the boards to sink in soft snow helping with planing the nose of the board up in soft snow and helping to prevent nose dive and decreasing the need for getting weight back to the tails . This effect is helpful in powder but it is also very help in crusty backcountry snow in the spring that tends to trap the tips of skiboards and cause the rider to pitch forward . What looks in the video like nice smooth snow , actually has variable spots where the snow is crusty and more resistant to turning , a method to improve the ability to get the tail down in this kind of stuff is very nice.

Like Kirk , has said in his review of the set back bindings on the ktp , I do not like the feel of the KTP set back in the rear inserts in firm groomed snow , but as soon as there is some softness to the snow ,carving the KTP with the
rear set binding is very nice annd feels much like a center mounter and not at all like a short ski . With all that board in front of you , you feel like your are on a wide Sherpa like 110 or Condor and forget that you have a smallish tail . The tail still is there I can feel lift in the tail in soft snow but I do not have to work to put my weight there .. I just ride balanced like I do on the Sherpa and the board remains very neutral and responsive .

Also although the KTP is a stiff board , it does not feel stiff or difficult to turn at all iin soft backcountry snow , and when the snow gets a bit firmer and the slopes are steeper the edge hold even of a set back KTP is wonderful . Bill on his Hagan on some steeper firm sections felt that his rear set Hagans were
having a bit less edge control then my KTP.

Being a longboard guy , riding a shortboard like the KTP in the backcountry is super fun .. the KTP is a rather amazing board in that it really ramps up the manuverability of the longboards yet especially in the set back position feels very stable and longer than it is . The KTP at 101 is very nicely packable on the backpack and that also is very much appreciated.
With the snowshoes going up and the KTP on my back the ascent was actually quite fun and different than skinning up on my Sherpa , I really liked going straight up steep slopes like a gecko with excellent traction from my crampon equipped snowshoes , cool different feel to the climb ..

I really do think that especially in the spring in firmer snow .. the snowshoe/KTP kit will really be right up there competing with my Fritschi mounted Sherpa as the kit of choice .

Darn! right when I thought I had become a one board guy for the backcountry , here I am faced with a quiver dilemna again !

[mahatma]

Alright, this is now officially out of hand. First jjue forces me to purchase 1 of everything on the SBOL site because of his reviews. Then, I have to buy a Pilchuck backpack to hold the collapsible poles he made me purchase and now I need to run out and buy a 2nd set of snowshoes to feel completely whole. I'm seeking therapy.

Great stuff jjue. Great stuff.

[pinkkid]

Jack, you've created the backcountry skiboarding fever even moreso now! LOL!
The Tahoe/Donner area offers a ton of winter and summer activities year round. It is a wonderful playground for all. I feel very luck to be the 6 hours awya that I am from it... lke it better if I were closer, but then I'd have to live away from the my wonderful central coast.
California is so diverses, love it.

[sempai]

jjue,

Do you think you would enjoyed your snowshoes and KTPs as much if the conditions were deeper soft snow and not packed down?

[jjue]

jjue,

Do you think you would enjoyed your snowshoes and KTPs as much if the conditions were deeper soft snow and not packed down?

i think that the snowshoes with the flotation tails would be pretty good in that situation especially with a few other guys to share the trail breaking

some of the reviews say that for the deepest snows , the more traditional type trampoline type snowshoes might be better ,, quiver of snowshoes ???

also i think the KTPs would be good with the set back in deeper snow ..
for the deepest snow , might like the condor for maximum float with a non releaser binding . I have been toying with the idea of getting a pair of condors and putting in an additional inserts like the Ktp for a set back like the KTP , or getting a pair of zeros to allow the set back but probably the inserts would be cheaper . I already have snowjams and line ff pros , also there is a local ski shop that does a good job puttiing in inserts for me . I have used him for putting in some extra inserts for mounting Fritschis on a 120 .

one of the issues to think about , however, with the longer skiboards is that putting in rear inserts increasing the lever arm in front of front of your boot toward the longboard range and probably increases the risk of injury . with non releasers.
course you could use spruce releasers , but the real attractiveness of the snowshoe /skiboard route is the use of the lightest weight set up possible and thus the non releasers , especially the lightest ones like the bombers are really attractive .

with the Ktp with the inserts , a set back binding has pretty much the same length of skiboard in front of you as the 110

[jjue]

the cost of the snowshoe/skiboard backcountry route really trumps the touring binding/skins route

snowshoe msr denali 100-139 dollars ( often can be had at discount off the msrp of 139)
flotation tails 29 dollars



vs fritschi binding 400 dollars
pair of skins150 dollars
ski crampons and crampon attachments 100 dollars
adapter plates and extra inserts for Spruce longboards maybe 200 dollars

overall like the snowboarders on splitboards , the touring binding ,skins route is absolutely the best and cadillac route to go .. but the economy route especially for skiboarders using snowshoes and skiboards is really viable and even more viable then for snowboarders

skiboarders are more packable and easier to carry then the snowboards ..
going downhill , it is much easier to pull out your collapsilbe poles and just use your skiboards like skis to move about , climb up small rises , and scoot along on cat tracks etc.

boots are important , really niice to have the lightest weight most comfortable skiboots you can find ,

[cmbruin]

Very cool Jack. Amazing pics and videos and what a great idea for the backcountry.

I've been wondering about set backs for other r8 boards. I agree that in most situations I prefer center mounted, but for deeper powder and thick crud I like the set back - not because it's manditory, but because I'm out of shape. :D I think the revolts and bwps could benefit from additional inserts, but the longer boards may be better with Spruce's powder plate, since 4cm becomes a smaller ratio of a set back the longer the boards get. Like you said, inserts help to make the boards even more versatile.

[CrazyBoy-1]

On groomed snow, the Condors are great center-mounted. In deep snow, I feel like I need to weight the tails and so a setback option might be nice. What's interesting is that the feeling of needing to weight the tails doesn't come from a desire to keep the tips up but to get the tails to sink. Having said that, in a situation where deep powder is being riden along with groomers, I like the idea of center-mount all the time. For example, at the Jay Jam this year we had many instances were we transitioned from icey groomers to powdery glades, and I was happy to have that familiar skiboard feel. If I'm able to make it out next season to Shredfest 2, my setup will most likely be the Condors and snowshoes.

[jjue]

great points crazy boy , and I agree with you completely. .. I really like the feel of skiboards center mount at the resort where i am moving back and forth between groomed and powder or broken powder and crud.. I always ride the KTP center mount at the resort .. the major difference in the backcountry is that the snow is more uniform then at ski resort and unbroken . it almost always is soft even in the spring as we choose to descend slopes once they haven softened in the morning sun . in the backcountry leaving the Ktp in the rear inserts makes sense .. where as in the ski area , i ride all my boards includng the ktp center mount ... in firm snow the way that the tail contributes to the wonderful skiboard carve is very important to me and I lose that rear mounting my skiboards.

The amazing thing about the Condor is how much floatation it packs into such a short foot print and lightweight board. The Condor is actually lighter than the KTP !!! If going up with snowshoes rather than touring bindings .. I would much rather be carrying a Condor with non release bindings ( maybe set back on custom inserts ) then carrying the Sherpa with a heavier Spruce
release binding . For me the snowshoe option makes the most sense with the Revel8 shortboards with light weight non release bindings , where as the Spruce longboards make more sense to be mounted with a custom Fritschi touring system . Just my two cents. . ..

ps. your comment about keeping the tails down is right on.. on center mount symmetric skiboards with bigger float .. I feel that the tail has so much float that the board is no longer neutral and I have to work to overcome the float in the tail and get it to settle down .

[valmorel]

I would still stick to my 120s with Riser centre mounted. They are thankfully light, though not as light as the KTP/Fixie set-up, and mounted centre, such a 'go anywhere anytime' board. I used my 105s set back 40mm in spring powder couple weeks back, and they worked fine, so I think anybody with 105/110s can do the backcountry trip if they can figure a way to build in set-back. Folks on 120s will have a blast if they can live with the little extra weight going up.

[NninoN]

soft snow??? where??

btw...very nice mountain...mmm...

[pinkkid]

I used my 105s set back 40mm in spring powder couple weeks back, and they worked fine.

David, did you ever post up a review on the 105's? These seem like a short board for you, but glad you bought them! what did you think of them?

[jjue]

I would still stick to my 120s with Riser centre mounted. They are thankfully light, though not as light as the KTP/Fixie set-up, and mounted centre, such a 'go anywhere anytime' board. I used my 105s set back 40mm in spring powder couple weeks back, and they worked fine, so I think anybody with 105/110s can do the backcountry trip if they can figure a way to build in set-back. Folks on 120s will have a blast if they can live with the little extra weight going up.

yes, i can vouch for both the 120 and the Sherpa doing great in very deep backcountry snow from the center mount position ...
i am spoiled because i have Fritschi touring bindings on both my 120 and my 130 and like to use them with skins climbing with them on my feet rather than on my back .. but certainly if you can live with the extra weight of the longboards with spruce risers on your back on the way up .. , they certainlly are a great option as well for snowshoe assisted backcountry skiboarding

[sempai]

jjue,

What pack is it that you have that can carry skiboards and any other gear you take?

[jjue]

jjue,

What pack is it that you have that can carry skiboards and any other gear you take?

It is the K2 Pilchuk , it is an older model . if you look for it make sure it has a side pocket and the back straps .. I think Mahatma imported a load of these packs to his sports store in japan .. he might have some at discount ???

I like it for day use in the backcountry , just big enough for some extra clothes, water, flotation tails , shovel handle and shovel blade , snowshoes or skiboards and collapsible poles .

[mahatma]

Sempai,

We still have the Pilchucks jjue referenced. Apparently, the bag has gone through a few evolutionary modifications but I can get the type jjue uses with the elastic pouches on each side that hold collapsible poles in either black or moss green. While it's not exactly a state secret I'd prefer not to post what I can get them for. If interested drop me a PM.