Need Some Technical Riding Help [Archive] - Skiboardsonline.com | The Forum

FightingForAir

11-18-2009, 07:28 PM

So as many of you already know from previous posts by me, I'm very much new to skiboarding and relatively new to snowsports in general. 1.5 seasons on skiboards with about a dozen trips on skis and snowboards in prior years. I did Shredfest in Tahoe last year and learned a lot from riding with everyone down there. I can comfortably ride groomed blacks and have been down a couple double blacks ... though not very efficiently. :D :o

I have a couple goals this season and need some advice on how to accomplish them.

#1. Those long, deep, dragging the hand in the snow, laid over on your side kind of carves. I could not figure out the mechanics last season. I see pictures and video and have been unable to replicate it. I see the downhill board somewhat stretched out, both boards high up on edge, crouched over, deep bend in the knees. However, when I try to get into that deep laid over carve, I eat it. Sooooo ..... what are the tricks? Do you have to carry some relatively higher speeds. More weight on the uphill board? Downhill board? Steeper slope or should I be able to get cranked over on the blue runs I spend most of my time on?

#2. Ungroomed chop and powder. I want to be efficient and smooth at this year's shredfest for the backcountry days. I don't want to have to worry about blowing my legs out or eating it in the soft stuff and having to fight like all get out to dig myself out of 2 feet of powder. Thus, I intend to do as much off piste riding as possible prior to February to get myself prepared. Advice on riding the choppy / fluffy stuff well? I'll be on Condors for the off piste riding and KTPs most of the time for the groomers.

Any tips, instructions, etc would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.

CAN

11-18-2009, 07:50 PM

Bill

11-18-2009, 07:59 PM

Robert & Chad,

I agree those hand-dragging carves are really cool. I think the trick is getting up enough speed. Unfortunately, that speed is probably faster than I care to go, lol.

FightingForAir

11-18-2009, 08:09 PM

Most impressive to me are those photos I've seen of someone having both hands down in the snow. I wanna figure out how to do that.

iamriddik

11-18-2009, 08:11 PM

the trick with powder is just sit back and put all your weight on your heels. if your tips sink into the powder, you're gonna eat it.

SkaFreak

11-18-2009, 08:43 PM

Blue runs are just fine for laying down hand dragging carves. The first important thing is to keep enough speed going into it that the centripital force of your boards pulling the carve in will be enough to support your weight pushing out on them. Before you get into your turn, get down in the usual gorilla stance. As you enter the corner, lean into it. The inside leg of the turn should have a decent bend in the knee, and your outer leg will be straighter. Make sure that your center of gravity is in line with the force you are applying to your boards.

mahatma

11-19-2009, 06:08 AM

FightingForAir,

Knuckle drag and forearm drag carves are actually pretty easy from a technical standpoint. You will need speed and you will need commitment. Some of the things I did when picking up this bit of incredible fun:

Be pointed straight down slope and be carrying speed. You don't have to be breaking the sound barrier but....

DO NOT attempt to steer the boards. This is called turning. You want to carve. Don't worry - carve you will. Boards pointed straight please.

Lean over straight (I mean lean down) and put both hands on the knee of the direction you want to go. Want to carve right? Both hands go on the right knee.

Now, commit. That means leaning over (to the right in this case) to a point you feel like you are going to fall. Don't wussy yourself over - COMMIT AT ONCE.

Remember, no steering the boards. When you commit you will naturally super-weight the downhill ski and the knee of the side you are turning too (in my example the right knee) will be up in your chest. You will miraculously carve. You'll feel incredible.

Word of advice - don't be too impressed with yourself are you will carve yourself right off the groom. Maybe right off the mountain. Ha ha. Just kidding. But, you'll be hauling buns so you'll want to be looking to set up the next carve.

Raise up, put hands on opposite knee then do what I do - commit yourself over, dig in that downhill board while simultaneously grunting. When I'm getting it on I grunt, spit, exhale like mad, snot blowing out while I scream encouragement to myself like "GET SOME", "YOU DA' MAN", "YO' MAMA".

Do these things and all of a sudden too steep is not a concept. Well, as long as it is a straight run. You'll throw yourself off 38 degrees like a frothing at the mouth, rabies infected mongrel and drag yourself so far over you have to stretch your arm out to keep pushing over. You'll fall in love. You'll also be alone. Rabies is infectious. People will look at you like you are nuts. Scratch yourself then sniff your glove. I do.

FightingForAir

11-19-2009, 10:45 AM

HA. Mahatma, you absolutely kill me. Makes me want to travel over to Japan just to get a chance to ride with you.

Ska and Mahatma .... thank you very much. That is exactly the type of clarity I was looking for. First trip out this season will be the first weekend in Dec so I'll be spending lots of time trying to work it out.

Doing squats, plyos and lunges right now like a madman so my legs can handle a full day of gorilla riding.

slow

11-19-2009, 11:10 AM

HA. Mahatma, you absolutely kill me. Makes me want to travel over to Japan just to get a chance to ride with you.

Mahatma,

Any chance you will make it to Shredfest?

valmorel

11-19-2009, 11:18 AM

Hey Robert. Nobody mentioned grip. You need grippy snow to lay down these carves safely. If the edge grip is sketchy, you will have trouble. When learning, go in stages so you get a feel for it, but especially, dont get back on the tails as you complete the turn or you will over-rotate. That is not good :)

FightingForAir

11-19-2009, 11:26 AM

Thanks Val ... I did that exact wrong thing on the tails once ... riding with RGZIP up in White Pass Washington. It spun me around and chucked me. Another time on the same trip, I was working up some speed trying to get it on with the lay down carve and it felt like I had too much weight on my uphill board because it got caught up, got me in some semi-splits, and dumped me.

Hey Robert. Nobody mentioned grip. You need grippy snow to lay down these carves safely. If the edge grip is sketchy, you will have trouble. When learning, go in stages so you get a feel for it, but especially, dont get back on the tails as you complete the turn or you will over-rotate. That is not good :)

wjeong

11-19-2009, 12:52 PM

Robert,

Make sure you're bindings are tight enough to take the force of a carve like this. When I was using Bombers, I could lay the boards over as hard as I could and have some real fun. I quit doing really hard layover carves when I exploded out of my releaseable bindings one time while laying the boards over. I have to have them too tight to carve for me to feel safe in them all around. For powder trainining, I suggest you give a powder plate a try for at least a half day in really deep stuff. If I remember correctly, you own one. I can loan you mine at shredfest. Remove the plate after you get the feel of where the best balance point is in the pow. I know not many like the plate, but as a training tool, I think it will help.

Wendell

SkaFreak

11-19-2009, 01:21 PM

Yeah, I had a carve induced pre-release going somewhere in the ballpark of 40mph. I took the opposite approach and cranked my DIN up a bit more. They've released when I needed them to and haven't when I don't.

FightingForAir

11-19-2009, 01:54 PM

Thanks much Ska and Wendell. Good stuff.

CrazyBoy-1

11-20-2009, 03:12 AM

Having the right snow conditions definitely helps with those agressive carves. If you don't have enough traction, all those forces will just make you slide out. Steepness can also help. My first experience with hand dragging carves was on a nice steep double black with decent coverage. I was on KTP's and EMP's that day, but I've also had some amazing carving runs on the Condors. With all the edge and that tight turning radius, the Condors are more than capable of thigh-burning, hand-dragging, trench-digging carves.

In powder, leaning back is good on shorter boards, but on the Condors I've found that it's best to keep your weight more centered. The boards are so flexy that the tails don't really have the rigidity and support for riding backseat. By the same token, the flexiness also means that those big tips don't dig in very easily. I distinctly remember riding in powder at Jay last year and glancing down to see that my boots were submerged, but the tips on my Condors were poking up and riding over the powder with no problem.

Hope that helps somewhat.

mahatma

11-20-2009, 05:07 AM

Slow,

Unfortunately, I will not make Shredfest. No vacation for the next few years because of the new gig. Need to make the right impression and all that. I'll take a vacation day here and there if one of the kids are sick or something like that but otherwise I'm on the job. Once I reach a point of "use or lose" (in a few years) I'll then be able to take vacations.

FightingForAir,

All the advice given by the other guys is totally valid. I think we've all lost a board carving until we got our DIN right. If you want the ultimate carving thrill try Lacroix 125's. Nothing and I mean nothing rocks the casbah like Lacroix 125's on hardpack.

Take if from me and watch out for spunky, old women skiers. Look for them. Wait if they are present. Do not go first. They are faster than you think. They think they are tough but crumple like a sheet off a line when put against a 220lb man in a carving gorilla stance traveling at 40+mph. It ain't nothin' nice. Trust me on this one.

FightingForAir

11-20-2009, 10:41 AM

It does. Thanks.

In powder .....

Hope that helps somewhat.

wjeong

11-20-2009, 11:37 AM

[QUOTE=CrazyBoy-1;91857]Having the right snow conditions definitely helps don't dig in very easily. I distinctly remember riding in powder at Jay last year and glancing down to see that my boots were submerged, but the tips on my Condors were poking up and riding over the powder with no problem.

Jack has mentioned this characteristic of the Condor. This has me interested in them. Tips that don't dive... cool.

Wendell

winterparkrider

11-20-2009, 02:10 PM

the key to doing both is simple. Speed and aggression. For skiboards to hold your weight you need to go pretty fast. start by going strait and then with some serious force lay into a turn. if you fall your not going fast enough. when the proper speed is reached for your weight the edge will hold you. And the 2 handed thing is about balance and trusting your edges.And for the choppy pow you need to think of you legs as shock absorbers. keep your boards together and just suck up the bumps and chop the best you can . cause if you dont suck it up with your legs the energy makes its way to your head and thats bad for vision.

fathom

11-22-2009, 10:32 PM

I would live to know how they do those lay down carves also Robert. I hate to say but I think that steepness and speed are two factors that help contribute to the force needed to lay them out. We will have to actively search out pLaces to do them in Tahoe.
Chad

If you looking for steep smooth well groomed, Upper Zach at Kirkwood is great.
Doing this up first lift up in the morning is heaven:
http://www.extremecarving.com/movies/movies04.html

Miller Thyme

11-23-2009, 12:21 AM

If you looking for steep smooth well groomed, Upper Zach at Kirkwood is great.
Doing this up first lift up in the morning is heaven:
http://www.extremecarving.com/movies/movies04.html:D

Your link included the smile in it & leads to a file not found page. Need to seperate with a space.

http://www.extremecarving.com/movies/movies04.html :D

FightingForAir

12-07-2009, 12:13 AM

So anyway ... today was my first trip out for the season and I had opportunity to put all the advice I got to the test. Tons of new snow, howling winds, variable terrain that included some deep wind-blown powder stashes, lots of chop, and lots of wind cleared ice sheets (temps were down in the single digits).

I just had to say thanks once again to everyone for the advice. It all worked like magic. Got my hand dragging deep carves down by run #4 and got my chop riding smooth and flowing by about midday.

Good stuff. Thanks again all. This is going to be a great season.

valmorel

12-07-2009, 12:17 AM

You on the KTPs this year Rob?

FightingForAir

12-07-2009, 12:27 AM

This drill worked fantastically well. Thanks much.

It exposed my problem of why I was not able to do the lay over carves before. I realized I was a-framing in the past. I was getting my downhill board high up on edge but not my uphill board. By doing this drill you gave me below and putting my hands on my uphill knee, I naturally pushed it up the hill - into the slope and got it up where it needed to be.

Very good stuff.

FightingForAir,

Lean over straight (I mean lean down) and put both hands on the knee of the direction you want to go. Want to carve right? Both hands go on the right knee.

Now, commit. That means leaning over (to the right in this case) to a point you feel like you are going to fall. Don't wussy yourself over - COMMIT AT ONCE.

... I do.

FightingForAir

12-07-2009, 12:30 AM

Yeah ... after switching back and forth between the KTP and Spruce 120 through the last two months of last season, I fell in love with the KTP. That is my kinda ride - short and fat. I'm getting Condors for the big pow and off piste riding. I imagine I'll be well covered between those two boards though I'm hanging on to the ALPs to mix it up and keep around as loaner boards for friends.

You on the KTPs this year Rob?

winterparkrider

12-07-2009, 08:14 AM

jjue

12-07-2009, 08:47 AM

I think I awnsered this very question not to long ago. you seem to understand the body mechanics but you def should go alot faster. especialy if you are heavy. the edge will only hold you at high speed in that kind of carve. But you also need to be aggresive in the initail edge. really drive with your body. and as for pow all I can say is get condors with the zero bindings that have the set back feature and keep your boards together and you nose over your toes and you should do just fine

Great points , Brett , and I agree .. Here are some thoughts , I have about the Condors and set backs. In terms of set backs , the amount of set back you can get on non release skiboard bindings depends on two factors whether the binding has extra insert holes like the zero and the bomber, and how much adjustability the binding has to set back your boot in the binding itself . The Zero has about similar boot adjustability as the Bomber and has about a 1cm additional set back compared to the Bomber elite 2 which also has set back holes but one less. The zero binding allows 2cm set back on the insert pattern and up to additional 2cm set back based on the size of your boot . The Bomber elite 2 allows 1cm set back and up to additional 2cm set back pased on the size your boot . Line FFpros allow about up to a 2cm set back based on the size of your boot with no insert holes to allow further set back .
Basically you buy 2cm more potential set back on the Zero over the Line FFpro and 1cm more potential set back over the
Bomber Elite 2's .

I do think that while running a bit of set back on the Condors can help . it is not completely necessary and folks will do fine on the Condors in pow running at center with much less need to put weight to the back of the board then on boards with less float .

On spruce risers you are running center , unless you have the no longer produced Spruce power plate to put you back .. I would recommend trying center with the risers . you probably will not need any kind of set back on the condor

winterparkrider

12-07-2009, 09:11 AM

I have found the set back position makes it a little easier on the quads. it makes the float alot more effort less and thus for a longer day of riding

jjue

12-07-2009, 09:24 AM

I have found the set back position makes it a little easier on the quads. it makes the float alot more effort less and thus for a longer day of riding

Ok Brett , you have convinced , me .. I have to try out the Zeros on the condor .. they look exactly like the Line ff pros in terms of bail set up so should work fine with my retrofit touring bindings... I put in an order ... looks like the Zeros are back in stock after being sold out , but only a few left...

FightingForAir

12-07-2009, 10:38 AM

I was having to ride my tails a bit yesterday on the KTPs. I did not move the riser back to the second set of inserts because of the variable conditions I was in. I only went over the handle bars once, but the tips of the boards got submerged pretty deeply a couple times. As long as I kept my speed up, I was fine ... even through the mid boot high powder and chop. A lot of pitching forward and backward ... just made me have to focus on balance more.

Very much looking forward to trying out the condors in the same type of conditions.

FightingForAir

12-07-2009, 03:32 PM

Thanks much. Condors are ordered up. I did OK on the KTPs in the choppy powder yesterday but really had to lean back hard on the tails at times to keep the tips from diving (my quads are killing me today). I found myself in some very soft and very deep powder drifts... to the point where my boards were completely submerged and I was sunk down about halfway up the cuff of my boots. If it wasn't for hitting the drifts with a bit of speed, I'm sure I would have hit the brakes and pitched over the top several times. The conditions were a total repeat of my first day out last season... but more successful and enjoyable thanks to help from you all on this forum and having gotten a lot of riding time last year.

I think I awnsered this very question not to long ago. you seem to understand the body mechanics but you def should go alot faster. especialy if you are heavy. the edge will only hold you at high speed in that kind of carve. But you also need to be aggresive in the initail edge. really drive with your body. and as for pow all I can say is get condors with the zero bindings that have the set back feature and keep your boards together and you nose over your toes and you should do just fine

jjue

12-07-2009, 03:37 PM

Thanks much. Condors are ordered up. I did OK on the KTPs in the choppy powder yesterday but really had to lean back hard on the tails at times to keep the tips from diving (my quads are killing me today)..

The rear inserts on the Ktps make a world of difference in pow . almost like a different board .. much less effort , strain on quads, and much less tendency to go over the handlebars.. very condoresque in the rear set backs compared to the Condor center, a rear insert mounted KTP in pow feels like a wide 110 and you don't notice how little tail you have behind you , just that magically you don't need to weight your tails much at all .. the main difference is because the Ktp has less float it has less speed through the pow , ...

FightingForAir

12-07-2009, 03:49 PM

In the variable terrain I was riding yesterday, would I have had problems on the icy hardpack with the set back though? In other words, I was doing double-duty yesterday: trying the lay down carves on some very icy stuff at times and just a bit further down the same run would encounter a spot where the winds had been depositing all the fresh snow. So I'd go from faster speed long deep carves to hitting a foot tall powder drift and having to change gears pretty quickly. I was going to set the bindings back but was worried I'd boot out and spin my tails around during the icy carving.

The rear inserts on the Ktps make a world of difference in pow . almost like a different board .. much less effort , strain on quads, and much less tendency to go over the handlebars.. very condoresque in the rear set backs compared to the Condor center, a rear insert mounted KTP in pow feels like a wide 110 and you don't notice how little tail you have behind you , just that magically you don't need to weight your tails much at all .. the main difference is because the Ktp has less float it has less speed through the pow , ...

jjue

12-07-2009, 03:56 PM

wjeong

12-07-2009, 06:34 PM

yes, your point is well taken Robert ...
and if i was doing what you were doing , I would probably have just run them center as well ..

i don't like the rear inserts when I am in icy snow but like them when i am in the pow ...

one of the joys of the Condor for me .. is the ability to ride center in both ice and pow without thinking about set backs

very interested in how you get on with the Condors , and how it compares for you with your experiences on the KTP , alps and 120 ...
please post a review when you've had some time on them !

Robert,
It's interesting to me that 4 cm setback on the KTP's would have such an impact on hardpack. I can get really spun around on the Hagans with the recommended mounting in ice, but the Hagan recommended mounting is way back from center about 12cm. On a symetrical board, I have never had a problem with a 4 cm setback. I do so much skiing with setbacks that 4 cm is barely noticeable to me on hardpack. I think this has a lot to do with what you are used to.

Wendell

FightingForAir

12-07-2009, 07:16 PM

Well ... I will have to at least give it a try then. Next time I'm out on the KTPs, I'll set them back and see what happens. Worst case scenario, I spin out a few times. I carry a small screwdriver in my jacket so I could always easily swap back to center if it just doesn't end up feeling right.

Robert,
It's interesting to me that 4 cm setback on the KTP's would have such an impact on hardpack. I can get really spun around on the Hagans with the recommended mounting in ice, but the Hagan recommended mounting is way back from center about 12cm. On a symetrical board, I have never had a problem with a 4 cm setback. I do so much skiing with setbacks that 4 cm is barely noticeable to me on hardpack. I think this has a lot to do with what you are used to.

Wendell

fathom

12-07-2009, 07:49 PM