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  1. #16  
    Hardcore Skiboarder valmorel's Avatar
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    Looks like a nice product. Well thought out and likely a huge thing for those unlucky enough to struggle to get comfortable or warm in hard shell boots.

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  2. #17  
    Hardcore Skiboarder Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macrophotog View Post
    17mm = Tyrolia Attack 13 direct mounted to a ski
    31mm = Tyrolia PR10 Power Rail (track) direct mounted to a ski
    33mm = Tyrolia PR10 Power Rail (track) mounted on Spruce Dyna-Plates to a ski/skiboard
    42mm = Tyrolia Attack 13 mounted on Spruce Riser to a ski/skiboard
    56mm = Tyrolia PR10 Power Rail (track) mounted on Spruce Riser to a ski/skiboard (2.205" - I think Kocho tried this)
    ??mm = Envy Ski Frame used on an Attack 13 mounted on Spruce Riser to a ski/skiboard

    From the looks of the picture, I'd say the Envy Ski Frame, if used with the Spruce Riser, is up near crazy heights like Kocho's experiment mounting a Power Rail on a riser. . .
    The Envy unit looks good. No question these folks put a ton of work into it. There are a slew of issues to overcome with a softboot/release conversion. Unlike softboot bindings for skiboards, which basically screw directly to the board, the release interface introduces another element of play into the assembly. The softboot exo-frame has to compensate by being especially tight and rigid. This is complicated by trying to fit the limitless sizes and configurations of softboots out there—boa arrangements, protruding laces, etc. Apex solved this with their unitized boot, but fitting a frame around a generic softboot is another story.

    A major issue---as Wookie and Macro have noticed---is overall height from trying to retrofit DIN tabs under or around a boot that was not designed for them. One way or another, adding DIN compliant toe and heel pieces is going to increase height, there’s no getting around it. I’d be curious to know just how much height they had to add. To function consistently and meet industry standards, toe and heel DIN tabs have to meet some pretty strict material and dimensional specs. It looks like Envy incorporated these into an aluminum frame similar to the old “Rocker” binding. It's the same principle as Jeff's tray riser.

    Another variable to consider is the softboot itself. If you think about it, the bottom-line dimension that really matters is the distance from the bottom of your foot to the snow. This includes the ski itself, the binding (detailed in Macro’s useful chart), any riser, shim, track or touring mechanism, plus the underfoot thickness of the boot.

    A few years ago, I jury-rigged an oversize caliper and took measurements on several pairs of soft and hard boots. The dimension measured is from the top of the footbed to the bottom of the boot at the ball of the heel. Obviously, a different orthotic could influence this measurement.

    Here’s the underfoot boot thickness for some assorted ski boots that were on hand at the time:

    Bill’s US 10.5 Full Tilt “Model A” ski boots 1.80”
    Bill’s Head “I-Type” ski boots 1.95”
    Carolyn’s Apex (in frame) 2.25”
    Carolyn’s Lange ski boots 1.90”

    It appears that the typical ski boot adds just under 2” to the overall foot height above the snow. That’s a lot! More than I would have guessed, but these measurements are good. If softboots are thinner in this area, maybe some of the height-add on a conversion frame could be mitigated? Here’s what I came up with. These dimensions do NOT include any DIN-exo-frame add-on height:

    Bill’s Burton softboots 1.70”
    Bill’s K2 Thraxis softboots 1.20”
    Carolyn’s Burton softboots 1.40”
    Dave Cox’ US size 14 softboots 1.20”

    There’s some variation, but in general softboots tend to have less bulk here. Interestingly, for both release and nonrelease setups, the best boot I’ve tried personally is the triple-boa K2 Thraxis model. I believe, besides the good fit and rigidity of this boot, the relatively low underfoot thickness has something to do with that. I don’t know the dimensions of the Envy setup, but the prototype DIN conversion I built for myself adds .5” underfoot (along with some length---which is another issue). With this particular DIN conversion, this overall height (1.2” + .5” = 1.7”) is a bit lower than my favorite Full Tilt ski boots (1.8”). Even using Spruce Risers, I’ve used it on both skis and skiboards with satisfactory results. It's entirely possible that---with an appropriate boot and low-profile binding---the height of the Envy setup could fall within a reasonable and acceptable range.
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  3. #18  
    Hardcore Skiboarder Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
    Seemingly, another company, that doesn't understand anything about canting/cuff alignment!
    They may understand it, but introducing cuff canting to a softboot conversion is problematic. Softboots---especially models rigid enough to work with a conversion---are way less pliable than ski boot liners. To accomplish anything, a cuff canting adjustment in the exo-frame must apply serious force to overcome this rigidity in the softboot.

    Having said that, Gromit is correct: there’s a lot of value in ski boot canting. Personally, I max out the cant adjustment on all my ski boots to add pressure on the inside edges. It makes skiing/skiboarding significantly easier and less tiring, at least for me. To mimic this, I’ve tried building an exaggerated, fixed cant into a softboot frame--- both fixed and din versions. In my case it's a definite plus, but building in adjustability AND keeping the exo-frame rigid at the same time would be difficult. Everything’s a trade-off. I don’t blame the Envy group for skipping this detail. Important as it is, most recreational skiers are probably oblivious to cant.
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  4. #19 knees and skiing don;t mix anyway 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom91381 View Post
    ... I lent them to someone and she messed up her knee. I felt so guilty...


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    I've used release bindings my whole life, and have no ACLs on either knee. Don't let it get you too guilty.
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  5. #20 not for the small footed 
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    I would likely not shell out the bucks before a good demo after I disliked the early APEX model I tried, but looks like even if I wanted to, smaller feet sizes aren't coming out for another year. One of you guys will have to go first.

    Note their FAQ, though, that does say these are only for beginners to intermediates. To me that says they may have the same responsiveness issues I found in the Apex (I'm no racer, but it was bothersome).
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  6. #21  
    SBOLTeamIII Tom91381's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beckyricha View Post
    I've used release bindings my whole life, and have no ACLs on either knee. Don't let it get you too guilty.
    She was in a non release binding, hence my guilty conscious and investment in RVL8 and numerous boards and bindings


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  7. #22  
    Hardcore Skiboarder valmorel's Avatar
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    This could very easily derail into the annual 'fixed bindings are dangerous, no they are not thread'. Please don't lol.

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  8. #23  
    SBOLTeamIII Tom91381's Avatar
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    It was her first time skiing , and she was going slow when she did it too. The non release were the only skis I had to lend out.
    I never knew that the spruce risers where available to add to those skis.. Now I have a massive collection , hahaha


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  9. #24 Envy Ski Frame -Soft Boot Solution for release bindings. 
    Hardcore Skiboarder Bad Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom91381 View Post
    It was her first time skiing , and she was going slow when she did it too. The non release were the only skis I had to lend out.
    I never knew that the spruce risers where available to add to those skis.. Now I have a massive collection , hahaha


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    If it helps, release bindings only protect the skier from lower leg fractures and NOT knee injuries. If you tear you ACL using a non release binding, don’t blame the binding, it was going to happen anyway. In fact being in a short board is your best defense.
    Just these, nothing else !

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  10. #25  
    SBOLTeamIII Tom91381's Avatar
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    Maybe I’ll have to get some of the knee bindings for those members that might not have necessary knee strength? No screw them , I’m sure I’ll find something good for me instead.


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  11. #26  
    Hardcore Skiboarder Bad Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom91381 View Post
    Maybe I’ll have to get some of the knee bindings for those members that might not have necessary knee strength? No screw them , I’m sure I’ll find something good for me instead.
    The best protection for knees in ski length, the shorter the better. That amount of length in the tail behind the boot is especially important when it comes to preventing phantom foot (fall back, inside edge) injuries to the knee.
    Just these, nothing else !

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  12. #27  
    SBOLTeamIII Tom91381's Avatar
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    Good thing I ordered some bantams for loaners. I have a few friends that in-line skate that shows some interest. Why not expand their fun from the road to the snow


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  13. #28  
    Hardcore Skiboarder jjue's Avatar
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    Sharp drop in price on these envy ski frames, from 379 to 249 dollars until christmas , I couldn't resist buying a pair to try out .
    Even though they say side boas won't fit , my Ride Insano with side boa , does fit in the frame .
    I am very impressed with the build quaility . really top notch production qualities and durable , very firm plastic cuff ,
    has a ramp angle of the boot and a forward lean that duplicates standard recreational ski boots .
    Snaps right in to the Spruce riser , doesnt seem too high . Feels nice and secure . Total weight of the frame and my snowboard boot is 1 lbs 5oz heavier then my Full Tilt ski boots , so there is extra weight over standard ski boot .
    I will be trying this out on my Stickies next monday and will give full review.

    DSC_0063
    Boards :
    Blunt Xls -SBOL Modified GNU Rear Entry Snowboard Bindings
    Rockered Condors- SBOL Modified Sims Cipher Snowboard Bindings
    Rockered Condors - Backcountry modified RVL8 Receptor Binding -
    Spliffs -Backcountry modified RVL8 Receptor binding
    Spruce Osprey - Center Mounted with Spruce Backcountry riser/ Ambition AT binding
    Spruce Sherpa - Rear Mounted with Spruce Backcountry riser/ Fritschi AT binding

    Boots:
    Ride Insano Snowboard Boots
    Full Tilt Booters
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  14. #29  
    SBOLTeam III Rider sempai's Avatar
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    Very cool Jack! Can't wait to see you try them out.

    Skiboards:
    2013 Spruce Sherpas w/Tyrolia Peak 11s
    2015 RVL8 Blunt XLs w/Tyrolia Attack 13s
    2017 RVL8 Sticky Icky Ickys w/Tyrolia SX 10s

    Skis:
    2012 Icelantic Keepers w/Salomon Z12s
    2015 Blizzard Regulators
    w/Rossignol Axial3 120s

    Boots:
    Salomon X-Pro 80

    Past boards: Salomon Snowblades, Line MNPs 89 & 98 cm, Five-Os, Bullets, Jedis, Spruce 120s, LE 125s, Ospreys
    Summit 110s, Nomads, Jades, RVL8 ALPs, BWPs, KTPs, Tanshos, Rockets, DLPs, Blunts, Condors, RCs, Revolts, Spliffs
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  15. #30  
    Hardcore Skiboarder macrophotog's Avatar
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    I look forward to your review of these!
    Boards / Skis
    RVL8 - Blunt XL 100, Rockered Condor 110
    Spruce - Crossbow 115
    Head - Caddy 131 & 151, Ethan Too 141 & 151, SuperShape i.Titan 156
    Atomic - Access 151
    Armada - Triple J 155
    (previous: RVL8 - Revolt, KTP, DLP, Blunt, and BWP. Spruce - 120 and Osprey. Head Salamander 94 and Ethan Too 161. Atomic - 1:20 and Punx III 140. Summit Invertigo, Hagan OffLimit)
    Bindings
    Tyrolia Power Rail w/ PRD 12, Spruce Pro Risers w/ Tyrolia Attack 13
    Boots
    Atomic Overload Reactor 100
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